The Case for Gen IV

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The Case for Gen IV

Post by meepmeep189 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:54 am

It seems not many people like Gen IV other than me (prolly explains the lack of topics in this section of the forums *sigh* -.-). However I wanted to make a case for these games.

My first handheld game/pokemon game was Pokemon Pearl, which I played across two broken DS systems until finishing it before i got my DSi. It had a pretty extensive storyline which included many sci fi elements. The pokemon that make up time, space, antimatter, and the universe as a whole were introduced, which brought a very interesting dynamic to things. It had excellent music as evidenced by Giratina's theme & both of Cynthia's themes. They created beautiful and truthful remakes of the Gen II games, which arguably were better in quality than FireRed & LeafGreen. While these games hold significant nostalgic value to me, I think they stand very much on their own very well. Feel free to post your opinion, i'm open to a friendly debate on the issue Razz

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Re: The Case for Gen IV

Post by Drazex on Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:50 pm

I think for many of us, the issue is less that it wasn't good, and more that it wasn't *as good* as the previous games. And I think in general, anyone who complains about Gen IV isn't complaining about HG/SS, but the definitive games of the generation: Diamond/Pearl/Platinum. I haven't played far through HG/SS, yet, but I do find them awesome. Far better than the rest of Gen IV, to be sure. So my discussion of Gen IV focuses on those games, not the remakes.

Firstly, I found the pokemon the worst of the first five generations. The fact that half the new ones were just evolutions of older pokemon was an annoyance, though it did have precedent in Gen II, but unlike Gen II, they were tacked on at the end of the game, rather than integrated into the game like with Gen II. The half+ that didn't fall into this category were largely (a) unnecessary reinventions of older pokemon (starly and bidoof, like we needed *another* normal/flying bird, and normal rodent-thing, or bronzor/bronzong, which seemed like an unnecessary and less cool version of the metagross line), or (b) kinda stupid, imho (drifloon, buneary). Now, there were some good ones (Giratina, Toxicroak, Lucario, etc), but it was far more miss for me than hit, which all other generations have been the reverse of.

Secondly, it had incredibly weak plot. Gen V had a deep philosophical look at the treatment of pokemon in the world, and a rival/anti-villain who sincerely was doing what he thought was right (with an evil dude pulling his strings). Gen III had a continuing conflict with misguided anti-heroes/ecoterrorists, which lead to the awakening of Cthulhu ...I mean groudon/kyogre. Gen I/II put you against the mob, which felt the most realistic of all groups, who were less aimed for EVIL than self-advancement. Generation had some guys trying to harness the power of some pokemon, I think? Oh, and it leads to you capturing the creator of SPACE/TIME. ... Jumping the shark is an understatement, and it tried my suspension of disbelief like hell. ...and then you can later capture GOD. ...

And then there was game design. I got lost briefly in the middle of the game because the lack of plot and non-self-explanatory layout left me wondering where to go next. I figured it out, but not easily, and a friend of mine never got past that part. I don't ask to be railroaded every inch of the way, but even great sandbox games like the Elder Scrolls series still give you journal clues and/or waypoints. I talked to practically every NPC in the game, with no leads, before finally stumbling onto the path forward by accident. That is not good game design, and a problem I never had in any other game (with the exception of Gen I where I got stuck in Cerulean, and then on my way to Saffron, back when I was a kid). It's worth noting that the Cerulean thing, at least, was made MUCH more obvious in the Gen III remake of Gen I.
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Re: The Case for Gen IV

Post by Hydro on Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:58 am

A friend of mine just brought up the idea of a Gen IV remake taking place in this or the next generation. I doubt it will be in this generation, as there are only 2 more game slots, but pokemon will undoubtedly pump out as many remakes as possible with as much nostalgia as possible for the extra cash.

With ORAS we've been introduced to primal reversion through the signature items of Kyogre and Groudon, and I believe that such a mechanic could very very easily be used for deity legendaries that revert to their cosmic origin forms. With Giratina already having an Origin form, there is a slight complication, however we have not seen forms of origin for Dialga, Palkia, the three spirits or Arceus.
There definitely is a case against it, though I doubt the franchise would miss the opportunity to make more money easily.

This brought my friend and me to the subject of improvements and what was wrong/bad about gen IV, which i was surprised to see already discussed here, and thought I'd post some basics of our discussion.

I played through Sinnoh in both Diamond and Platinum being awarded two certificates of dex completion (the last I'll brag Razz ), and found that there was more to do post game in platinum than there was in the story, and arguably the same for Diamond.
One of the biggest things that Gamefreak made a push for in these games was multiplayer. Pokemon created the dichotomous game split more to encourage friends to trade, than to guarantee extra cash. With the move to an online and wireless trade network we were given the GTS!
In its baby state, it pales compared to X and Y's, but it was blueprinted and field tested in Gen IV.
I think Gen IV was gamefreak's sincere attempt to match fan's expectations of a sequel to emerald. They gave as many evolutions possible, due to the outcry for that, and gave as overpowered legendaries as possible. Both failed as they did not hit the mark, however I don't think the attitude was in any way wrong with the creating of the games, something that was entirely lacking with Black and White, if you ask me.

Now for the negatives that I have found DPPt to have... Copyright Infringement Policies. One thing that a lot of people who are active in the fangame community of pokemon before DPPt were released may have noticed the similarities of pokemon in fangames and pokemon published.
For the case of Glaceon and Leafeon, both the english and Japanese names (and I don't doubt others) were given by fakemon creators, and with sprites and artwork nearly identical to the release. With Magmortar and Electrivire, I believe that legitimately used sprites from fan scratches as a base for design. The Ideas of a god mother nature and devil/nightmare pokemon were common throughout fangames and fanfics, along with scientific phenomenon.
I think that DPPt are horrible compared to canon pokemon games, but if you viewed them as fan-games, in comparison to other fan games (without taking the idea stealing into account) they do still stand out quite prominently.

As an overall analysis, Gen IV was, I agree, a hit or miss with most of the designs. Overall becoming a field test for future models, but take into account that pokemon at this time had fears of shutting down. They did a copy and paste of what succeeded in Gen III and tried to appeal to the pokemon community, a mistake they will never make again (great quotes from Kenji Okubo on this matter). They overstepped what made pokemon games feel like pokemon, trying too detailed models like garchomp mixed with animals of no complexity like piplup. Replicas with no ingenuity don't belong in pokemon games. This is what led to Black and White being so radically different, also clouding many opinions on Gen IV, with black and white being a recreation of pokemon.

Aside from the meat of the games, with the postgame you had the underground which was fairly entertaining, plenty of legendary encounters (so much so you have people arguing over what is a legendary now... heatran and phione arrgh), a full battle frontier to playtest, and in all honesty the absolute Golden Age of the Metagame. Strategies were perfectly succinct and complete. There were so many possibilities with so many different teams to play out in so many different ways. There weren't singular pokemon found on every single team in OU, there was such a variety, in games with less numbers of pokemon, something quite astounding. All in all, with gamespy shutting down, and very few people still owning carts, the main reason to open up a DPPt game is to farm unknowns and send them up the pokebank... A sad statement, when considering a game that gave so much to the series (even if that was only examples of what not to follow, DPPt definitely changed the way pokemon games were made).

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